Why are their so many Vegetarian apologists?
Whenever another vegetarian or Vegan says anything the lest bit controversial such as meat eating is immoral, how can you stand to eat meat, or god forbid, I support the ALF, Some Vegetarian apologist is ready and waiting to right that person off for stating their beliefs.
Are some of you that insecure in the direction of our movement, if you can even call it a movement, that you feel the need to cater to the sensibilities of the masses and not offend anyone? I mean no one any disrespect, meat eater or vegetarian, but to discuss this issue means that some meat eaters and vegetarians might get their feathers ruffled a bit. Disagreements in ideology or tactics are fine, hell even desired. However, to have some Vegetarian apologist undermining others is frankly really annoying. Thoughts?
I think some of you are missing the point. I’m not talking about how militant someone is about the cause and whether you agree or disagree with that. You’re welcomed to hold and state whatever your feelings are on that subject. What I’m talking about is the people who marginalize others in their same group for having views that are more radical, or less, than their own. People who try and create the illision that the entire Vegetarian and Vegan movement is against this persons ideas instead if disagreeing with it yourself. That’s what I’m talking about.
@ greenghost: I have no idea what provoked that rant of yours. I’ll say two things and you can take them how you wish:
1. I’m not sure were you get your ideas about what the Animal Rights movement is about, but whether you like it or not, animal rights is a part of it. not just promoting a diet that causes less suffering.
2. No social justice movement in history has ever succeeded without a radical element. Ever. I intentionally try to stir up the pot about the ALF and groups like them because I believe Americans and most of the western world are afraid to be labeled as extreme, or support ideas viewed by many to be extreme. This is dangerous. The voice of moderation is important, but moderation is not a voice people hear. Moderation does not get things done, it keeps a balance. An important job to be sure, but it does not do the real work. It does not get people to open their eyes.
@ GreenGhost:
“Matt, my ‘rant’ is because you have a history here of claiming that those groups are pro-vegetarian and help spread the word about the benefits of vegetarianism! ”
-First of all who are “these groups?” I only mentioned one, the ALF, and I was not specifically talking about their contribution or lack thereof to the movement. I only mentioned them as a group that people feel the need to make excuses for wheather they support them or not.
“They do nothing of the sort and *hurt* the reputation of real organizations that understand that a positive message and positive actions are the way to sway general public opinion to our side!”
- Which organizations are we talking about here?
”Alf is a terror group plain and simple!”
- That’s your opinion, and your entitled to it. I don’t desire to go off track and talk about the inaccuracies of labeling the ALF a terrorist group in this question.
“At a bare minimum they have killed one person,”
- No they haven’t. Your grouping organizations that have no ties to each other. The federal government does not even claim the ALF has killed anyone.
”…injured several others and killed hundreds of animals through their campaign of arson…”
- While I don’t particularly agree with the tactic of arson in every case, every possible precaution is taken to make sure no animals are harmed when a building is burned down. Obviously this is imposable as spiders or mice, rats, or other creatures living in the building that were not captives could very well be injured. This is a problem, I agree.
..bombings and targeted assassination!”
- The “bombing was a lit Molotov cocktail sat on someone’s back porch, without being thrown at someone or something, this is about a dangerous as a lit tiki torch. Hardly a bombing. Again, they have never killed anyone, there has been no assignation.
“Thanks to alf’s record being blamed as veggie extremism you will find that it’s extremely difficult for scientists that happen to be veggie to be allowed anywhere near a lab.”
- What would any self respecting Vegetarian or Vegan scientist be doing in a lab experimenting on animals anyways?
“Vegginess is now considered a security risk! Media doesn’t just say alf blew up a research lab, they say things like “Vegetarian animal rights protesters bombed a facility that was working on a cure for the terrible human scourge of Lupus”.”
- The media distorts many things, We should work with them to any extent possible to make sure actions are reported properly. Indeed the ALF use to do this, but has quit for some reason. It needs to be a priority again.
“I (and other veggies in the region) caught a lot of flak when peta refused to help feed snowbound cattle in Colorado! Veggies in this region caught a LOT of flak over that since *most* Americans automatically think peta (who won’t support no-kill animal shelters) represents the mind set of ANYONE that supports veggies or animal welfare!”
- I’m no PETA supporter, However why should PETA waste their money to help feed cattle that will end up slaughtered anyways and help line the farmers pockets? I’m glad they did not help them. The farmers need to take responsibility for their own inaction. They knew the storm was coming. Those animals were going to die anyways, whether PETA helped or not.
“You claim that no social justice movement ever succeeded with a violent fringe element (yeah, I did twist your words). Was it Bobby Seale or M.L.King along with Rosa Parks that won civil rights?”
- Did the Black Panthers, and Malcolm X play no important role?
“Did the Underground Railroad save slaves lives; or burn plantations down and kill the slaves?”
- Actually their were groups that burned down plantations after slaves were freed. Keep in mind that what the Underground Railroad did was illegal and unpopular. The media condemned those actions then as they condemn the actions of animal liberators now.
“We all know M.K. Gandhi won freedom for India by blowing up British barracks and slaughtering all Indians that supported the Brit’s, right? Get my drift yet!”
- Wrong, talk to many Indians and they will tell you Gandhi got many innocent people killed unnecessarily. He is not quite as popular in his homeland as he is here.
“Right here in the Food>V&V section haven’t you seen folks slamming ALL vegetarians because of the stupid actions of alf and peta members? ”
- They slam us because of their lack of understanding of the issues their own insecurities or the media’s twisting of stories.
“Moderation is EXACTLY what gets things changed!”
- I would say not, and I don’t think anyone who has studied history seriously would disagree.
“I’ve been veggie longer than you’ve been on this planet (if I recall correctly you’re mid-20s).”
- Unfortunately that is no indication of comprehension of the topics, and is blatantly ageist.
”Myself and others like me that were ‘quietly’ veggie are what caused the surge of veggies in the ’70s. As folks became veggie they automatically began to care more about the condition of animals. It’s just a normal by-product of a ‘gentler’ form of life! Patience is a virtue and we all need that as we break cycles that have been ingrained in human conciousness for thousands of years.”
- So what do you suggest that we wait another thousand years until people wake up? The sixties and seventies are over, we don’t have time for all that hippie stuff now. Animals are dieing. It’s too late to let people come to vegetarianism on their own terms. We need to bring it to them.
”Your too young to remeber the days when it was considered ‘normal and no big deal’ to drown excess dogs and cats as one small example of how conditions have improved. How about bull and **** fights? No big deal when I was young but now the vast majority of people are disgusted with the situation!”
- That’s wonderful but now instead of drowning, dogs and cats are euthanized or sold to class B dealers who sell the animals into medical research. That’s hardly a victory for the animals.
”Aren’t you in Chicago where they’re banning Fois gras?”
- I am.
“Even though ineffective (and misguided) look at all the folks who shun factory animals and seek free-range “foods”. As they are slowly made to realize the truth of ‘free-range’ it’ll be veggies like me that will be there to switch them to analogs (fake meats) and away from animals; not peta and/or alf!”
- I sure hope so. Although I fear that the blinders of the free range label may take quite a bit of work to remove for many people.
“Finally(almost), you didn’t like me getting in your face did you
-Absolutely not. I took in what you said, however I disagree with it. I like a good debate. No hard feelings here, this is what it’s all about.
”That’s how people react to peta and alf!”
- That’s because PETA’s acts are mainly adventurism and ineffective, and the ALF gets nothing but bad press as of recently.
“That’s why if you *really* want to help veggies (and the natural flow to improved conditions for animals) you shoud be supporting the groups that that quietly put the whisper in the doctors ear that vegginess is healthy, that run no-kill shelters, that send letters of concern to regulators.”
- Welfarism is not my goal, Abolition is. Wile I would never argue that a longer chain and fewer beatings for a slave would be better then doing nothing to improve his or her condition, I would hardly be content to stop there. I feel the same for animals, they are not ours to use and exploit.
“Lastly; you might find it interesting to know that I was a ‘charter’ member of peta and left somewhere in the mid/late ’80s. I left them after they decided that irritating people was a good way to get massive press coverage; without paying attention to what bad press did to the cause!”
- As you might find it interesting to know that I really don’t like PETA or their methods all that much. The fact that they hire celebritys to appear in their ads and then turn around and kill animals they have rescued due to lack of funds is reason enough to not support them for me.
(Whew, thats long! Happy reading!)
Hi GreenGhost, I have posted my reponce on a diffrent yahoo site becuase this was getting hard to read, the full text of the debate, including my last responce can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veggiefacts/message/44
PM me to respond,or you can just post it here if you would like.
Maureen